Cubicle to CEO

$1M/Year With 1 Offer: Boost Your Sales With Bundling

August 14, 2023 Ellen Yin featuring Sam Vander Wielen Episode 207
Cubicle to CEO
$1M/Year With 1 Offer: Boost Your Sales With Bundling
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

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Is it realistic to make $1 million a year with one digital product? Attorney-turned-entrepreneur Sam Vander Wielen has proven it’s possible many years in a row with her Ultimate Bundle™, a collection of 10 fill-in-the-blank legal templates, on-demand trainings, and a raving community of thousands redefining the way coaches, service providers, and creatives protect their businesses!

Even though all the contracts in the bundle are available in the template shop to buy individually, the Bundle itself currently accounts for 90% of the shop’s annual revenue.

We’re getting into the nuts & bolts of what makes this bundle offer consistently outperform expectations despite, as Sam self-proclaims, selling a boring product.

If you're looking for a fresh way to package or position your offerings to fly off the shelf, Sam’s case study will open an entire world of new ideas for how to make even something so-called “boring” a must-buy.

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Ellen Yin  0:00  
You're listening to cubicle to CEO episode 207. Is it realistic to make $1 million a year with just one digital product? Attorney turned entrepreneur Sam Vander Wielen has proven its possible many years in a row with her Ultimate Bundle, a collection of 10 fill in the blank legal templates, on demand trainings in a raving community of 1000s redefining the way coaches, service providers and online creatives protect their businesses. Even though all the contracts in the bundle are available in the template shop to buy individually. The bundle itself currently accounts for 90% of the shops annual revenue, we're getting into the nuts and bolts of what makes this bundle offer consistently outperform expectations despite as Sam self proclaimed selling a boring product. If you're looking for a fresh way to package or position your offerings to fly off the shelf, Sam's case study will open an entire world of new ideas for how to make even something so called boring a must buy.

Welcome to cubicle to CEO the podcast. I'm your host Ellen Yin. I quit my job without a backup plan and bootstrapped my first $300 freelance project into $2 million in revenue by age 28. On the show, you'll hear weekly case study interviews with leading entrepreneurs and CEOs who share one specific strategy that successfully grew their business revenue. Skip the expensive and time consuming learning curve of testing everything yourself by borrowing what actually works from the best and brightest mentors. You'll also get a front row seat to my founders journey through transparent income reports and behind the business solo episodes. Subscribe now so we can grow together every Monday.

What if you can make your revenue targets a given not just a goal, let my friend Frenchie Ferenczi, host of the Strategy Snacks podcast, tell you how in 'F Manifesting' a mini series to maximize your revenue fringy distills the genius she's gathered from 10 plus years of scaling startups in almost three years of running her own multi six figure consulting business into this subscribers only audio series where she's dishing the secret to doing the right work at the right time. So that making more money is a given not just a goal, how to harness your decision making power. So you stop second guessing yourself and can consistently move forward with clarity why the truth you're not telling is costing you big time, and tons of quick, easy ways to feel clear and confident about your best next steps in business. The juice in this private podcast mini series is definitely worth the squeeze. Or in this case, a listen. Go to We're trying to keep it clean here, folks. So think F word without the U. Again, that's To sign up for instant access now, we'll also drop a clickable link below in the shownotes.

Hey, friends today on the podcast we have Sam with us, and Sam and I connected a while back. I think it might have even been two years now on Instagram. And she is just so delightful. And this is long overdue. And the case study that she's bringing to the table today I think will be really just thought provoking for you and thinking about the different ways that you can position and bundle your digital products to reach more customers and to increase your revenue. So, Sam, welcome to the show. 

Sam Vander Wielen  3:36  
Hey, Ellen, thanks for having me. 

Ellen Yin  3:38  
Of course in SAM, you are an attorney turned entrepreneur. And just a little bit of real talk here. I recently discovered, I know that this is probably nothing like your actual experience as an attorney, but I recently discovered the show Suits on Netflix even though you know it's been around for like over a decade. And I am such a binge watcher. So I'm literally on like the second to last episode and I started two weeks ago which is like, if you do the hours on like how much TV that is. It's pretty shameful. But but 

Sam Vander Wielen  4:10  
I'm not I'm not judging. 

Ellen Yin  4:12  
Okay, thank you. But I want to know like your journey from attorney to entrepreneur or cubicle to CEO, as we call it in our world. Like what was the catalyst that led you to leap into the online business space? 

Sam Vander Wielen  4:23  
Yeah, absolutely. I'm just laughing about the Suits thing because one, it was my dad's favorite show and my dad thought because he watched Suits like that made him as much of a lawyer as me. So like, he would talk to me all the time. Like, uh, well on the other day on Suits like this happen. I'd be like, Dad. That's not like... it's just kind of funny. So I'm very happy you brought that up. 

But yeah, I went I went straight from college to law school very young. I became an attorney at 23. And I started working at like a big corporate law firm. And unfortunately, from literally day one, when I finally sat my toast in the chair, I was like, oh, no, what did I do, right? And so it was it was bad. Like I always say like, I wish it was more like I had a honeymoon phase. And then it just like faded away. But it was bad from the start. It was real regrettable experience. So I, unfortunately, I mean, I'm actually glad now that I went through it. But for years for five, six years, I practice law as an attorney, and was in total victim mode the whole time, like, this happened to me, I was forced to become a lawyer, there's nothing I can do about it. Look at these loans. Everyone will judge me, blah, blah, blah. 

And my catalyst to your question was actually I mean, besides just becoming like unbearably miserable, like, to the point where I couldn't even bear to hear myself speak anymore, that I actually was coming home from Amsterdam, flying back to Philly, where I lived up until very recently. And we had this really scary plane incident, which I won't go into, in case anyone's listening to this on a plane or has to fly sometimes. And it was really scary. And obviously, everything's fine. I think I'm still here as far as I know. But it scared the life out of me to the point where I remember this very distinct moment on that plane, where I was just like, What am I doing? What am I doing, I have so much more control over that over leaving the law than I have on this plane, like it was just this kind of like slap across the face that I really needed. So within three days of that plane ride, I actually registered a business, started a website, like started doing all these little things. And I was starting a cooking business where so I did not go straight into legal, I needed a little bit of a break me and like well had to break up for a bit, I need some space. 

And I also need to learn about like, what this world is that we're in now, I didn't understand what an email list was, and lead capture and landing pages. And this was also foreign to me. So it was a great way to like work it all out. And in the process of doing that business trying to run that business, not very successfully. I could not stop people from contacting me asking me legal questions. And I was like, why are you guys asking me this? I'm not trying to be a lawyer. You know, I wasn't even talking about it. And I just got curious. Curiosity is my favorite word. And I got very curious about why people were asking what they were asking what was already happening in the space, you know, where the problems were? And that curiosity led to me being like, I think this is it, I think this is what I want to do. So in 2017, I started my legal business. 

Ellen Yin  7:17  
Wow, that is something that I mean, obviously, the worlds we come from completely different, but I can totally relate to that feeling of day one, realizing this is so wrong, like not the right place for you to be. For me, my story was I? Well, I mean, I had I had another full time job before this. But my first corporate first and last corporate job was at a health care company. And I applied for this role thinking that it was a marketing role for the larger health care system in this city. So it was like covering their hospitals, their foundation, their gym facilities, which I was really passionate about health and wellness back then. And so I was really excited because I thought oh, I can get so creative with like campaigns and events and like all these things in day one. The first like question My boss asked me was like, What do you know about Medicare and Medicaid and I just felt my like insides shrivel, and I was like, What do you mean? And she's like, oh, so like, you actually are the marketer for the health plan side, like the insurance side. And nowhere in the job description or the interview process was that brought up at all? So I feel you it was a doozy. 

And clearly, neither of us lasted. Yeah, I think a lot of people can probably relate to the reality of a job setting in and I often joke with my husband that I feel like life was built backwards. And we often we have to make decisions so early on that will impact us forever, when we don't know what we're doing. And so, you know, we only know by doing and by actually doing the job. And so I think what's so cool about business is that you get to make that like you make it about what you want to make, you can choose what products you offer, if you do services, whatever. And yeah, you can really create your own path. That's what I love about it. I couldn't agree more. 

And so you started this what has become a legal template shop out of clearly a need your community was coming to you for. And the case study that we're talking about today is around your premier product, the ultimate bundle, which started or was I guess, conceptualized in 2018. That was the inception and then obviously has grown into a I mean, just a mammoth for your business bringing in 90% of your annual revenue, which is very impressive for a single product to pull off. So before we get into the nitty gritty of how that one product made more than a million dollars last year, I want to give our listeners a little bit of context. So if we rewind back to 2018, what was the genesis of this product? Like why did you decide I'm going to bundle together a bunch of my ala carte templates into one product? 

Sam Vander Wielen  9:55  
Yeah, because I knew I knew I needed to increase like the amount, have the cost per purchase that people were spending people, it was also too expensive to buy all these individual things. So I was like, I wanted to create some sort of discount. So I tossed around the idea of like, "Well, should I do some sort of like coupon system, like you buy three templates to get one free" like something like this, but I couldn't really figure it out. Also, I was still then putting the onus on the customer for choosing which templates they needed. And one of the pain points that I saw was that people really needed more like a prescription to be like, these are the templates I need to get started. And even when they don't think they need all 10, they end up needing them, or at least very close to them. So they kind of needed an expert, you know, to guide them, which made sense to me. But the other thing was that at the time, and 2017 and 2018, I was offering live one to one sales calls, Discovery calls, whatever we call them then. And so I did about 1200 of them, then I was Yeah. Yeah, in about a year, a year and like four months, because I stopped them when I started the Ultimate Bundle. 

Ellen Yin  11:01  
Holy crap. I'm like, honestly impressed that you even thought to keep track because I feel like early on in my business, everything was by the seat of my pants. So like, I kept track of nothing like No, no numbers. I was very just, you know, whimsy. Yeah. So Wow. 1200. 

Sam Vander Wielen  11:17  
That's yeah, I don't blame you. The only reason I know how many I had is because I kept notes on all of them and those notes and ended up becoming the gold for my business early on. And really, the idea that led to the ultimate bundle that time was because I had had so many of those calls, I used to joke with my husband that I was like, I don't even know why I do these, I could literally get a recording of myself and put it on speaker and walk away for 20 minutes. And then like I even like know what to say I felt like a robo caller. Like, I felt like I could have just like I knew what they were gonna say, I knew what I was gonna say I knew what their problem was going to be like, I knew what I was going to tell them what they needed for the solution. And so I was just like, This is silly. It's a waste of my time. 

But also I was teaching a lot in these calls. And I was realizing that wasn't very great business wise. And so I thought, well, if everyone's asking the same questions, I can essentially record answers to my questions, which in its essence, is a course and put that together into a little package. I'll package together the legal templates that they need. And I'm going to put this all together. And sometimes I would sell it to people as like some people, I could tell the templates are really the bread and butter for them. That's really what they needed. And other people I could tell it was actually more of the videos of me teaching them how to get an LLC or teaching them how to get a trademark, because they were really looking for that support and the ability to walk through something. So I thought like, Oh, what a great marriage. Because now whether somebody's looking for this part or that part, I have both of them together.

Ellen Yin  12:47  
You know, a couple of interesting things you just said that stood out to me. One is basically, you in essence had 1200 market research calls, right? Like whether or not you intended for that to be what it was it gave you like you set the foundation for understanding the true pain points, hiccups, challenges, decision making process, really, of your potential customers, which I think is so valuable. And it is one reason why even though I agree and wouldn't never necessarily recommend that people take on Discovery calls at the volume that you did per se it that it still serves such a deep purpose. And I think people who have never done discovery calls never quite get as close to their customer as they could. Right? And so I think there was a lot of value in that. 

And then it was funny when you said that a main challenge for your customers that you observed was that they really needed someone to tell them like to prescribe them what they needed, rather than to give them the decision making choice, right? Because it is overwhelming, especially if you're dealing with legal stuff, and you have no idea what you don't know. And as much Suits as one can watch. Right? It's still, it's still not very clear exactly what you need. And so you kind of read my mind there because I was actually thinking that I was like, Oh, I bet that was like a challenge for your customers was deciding which legal templates to buy versus forego and so the fact that you kind of eliminated that problem for them. I'm sure there was almost a an immediate effect. Did you find that to be true? Did you see an instant jump in conversion once you kind of took away the burden of them having to pick and choose which templates to buy? 

Sam Vander Wielen  14:22  
Yeah, absolutely. Like the Ultimate Bundle was a no brainer from the start. I was pretty shocked. And I was barely even marketing it at first because I sold it to beta, I sold to like 15 people beta just asked him to go through it require that they give me feedback and that they met with me and talk to me more market research and in exchange for a significant discount. And many of those people are still very active in the ultimate bundle today. It's like five years later. 

Ellen Yin  14:46  

Sam Vander Wielen  14:46  
Yeah. And then I was like, Okay, let me open this up, but I'm not gonna market it very much. But I noticed that the people I would talk to about it, it was easy, like anytime anybody sent me an email asked me a question. I would explain whatever they asked about and then I waited why the bundle's the best fit, and it'd be like the boom, boom, boom, it started pretty quickly. 

I wanted to share two things with you that you mentioned that were such good points about the calls in case this is helpful to anyone, if anybody has a business in which like, you know, it's not that you don't understand necessarily what your pain points are of your ideal client, but like the way that I explained it is like, I've been a lawyer since I was 23. I never had a business when I wasn't a lawyer. So I like knew what people were confused about on a very high level, like, what how do I form my business? Like, do I need insurance? But I wasn't sure on the nitty gritty stuff of like, what are people getting confused? Or what are they getting stuck on? Or why did they not think this is important? What myths are they hearing online? And me talking to so many people is so transformative? Because I'm like, oh, that's what you're worried about? Okay, no problem, I can help you with that. 

But what they were worried about was not what I thought they should be worried about, those things were very, very different. And I'm fine with that. I want to know where they're at and what they're worried about. And I want to explain to them, you know, whenever they need help with, but I thought that was super helpful to get very clear, if you like, or somebody who's not in it like or you haven't been where your clients have been. 

And the only other thing I want to mention was that I still do research calls now. And I think that that's really important too, is that like, I hear a lot of people online, like a lot of online business coaches pushing people to do calls in the beginning, but then you ditch them. And I don't do free discovery calls anymore. But I do research calls where I do get on roundtables with people, we do calls after promotions with people, people who bought people who didn't buy people who sent us emails, but never bought. So I get on these calls all the time. And I'm still collecting data and still having these conversations. 

Ellen Yin  16:11  
That is awesome. And I totally agree with you that market research really should be a continual element in your business, there really is no end per se to learning about the people that you're serving with your products and services. As a sidebar to that, I guess, what are you currently utilizing to incentivize people to hop on these roundtable focus groups with you and give their time and feedback? 

Sam Vander Wielen  17:05  
Yeah, so sometimes, like I've given, we've done it different ways, like so sometimes I've said to people, like, hey, I'll have maybe 10-15 minutes of questions for you. I'm happy to hop on for half an hour. And any questions you have, for me, I'm happy to you know, answer for you at the end. So it's just kind of like a mutual exchange. Other times we've sent gifts, which we always tell them ahead of time, like will offer you this or that or the other thing. Other times like I have something new that I'm creating, so I've given them an incentive so that they will get that product, if they talk to me, stuff like that. So I've used different things depending on the person. 

Ellen Yin  17:37  
That's awesome. Now, that I think is just something that is coming up a lot actually, in recent interviews, this idea of post promotion, similar to how a lot of people treat market research is something you do at the beginning of your business, and then they never touch it again. Similarly, I think with launches, so much of the energy goes into the before and the during that after it's kind of like Okay, it's done, wipe my hands clean move on, when really like you said some of the juiciest data comes from that after segment where you're asking people like why didn't you buy? Or why did you buy and understanding that process for next time? So I'm so glad that you expanded on that thought. 

I realized, as we were talking about this case study that I didn't really give you a chance to high level explain what the ultimate bundle actually is. So I understand it's a collection of 10 legal templates, can you just high level like what are those templates? And is there any other element to the bundle outside of the templates? I think you mentioned a community and what is the price point of the bundle to? 

Sam Vander Wielen  18:35  
Yeah, sure. So the Ultimate Bundle is like the best legal program on the market, in my opinion, my biased opinion for anybody who has an online business because I've combined all of the legal contract and website policy templates you need with all of the trainings you need as a early stage and growing entrepreneur because there are trainings in there to help you as you scale. So basically, I'm one of those buyers that needs to know like what's included, like I need to I just like skip right to the little list of what's included. 

So 10 legal templates. So you have like client contract, and you have group program contracts, things you can use for like a mastermind or a group program, a course a membership, anything like that. You have all three of the website policies you need, like a privacy policy disclaimer, in terms of conditions, you have a testimonial release to send to your customers so you can share their testimonials. There's an independent contractor contracts, you can hire people. So it's like literally, it's really a lot of the stuff people needed in the beginning and then everything that they need as they add on in their businesses. And then the other big part of it is these 35 On Demand video trainings that teach you everything from how to form an LLC, to how to navigate all the stickiest issues with customers like what to do if somebody doesn't pay you what to do if somebody steals your content, like all of these kinds of different client disputes, how to get trademarks and copyrights when you need them. How to become an S corp, like all that stuff is covered inside of the trainings and then you get support from me. 

There are two different kinds of private communities because we learned that people don't necessarily like Facebook anymore, which is very different than when I started. So we just have like only a Facebook option that we have to. So people get access to me, we have customer support as well. So if people need additional help with like tech stuff that I don't do, and then they also get lifetime access, which has been really cool, because now we've had people in it for like five years. So their businesses have changed, they've started new businesses, and they have continued access to it. And also, because of that continued access, I include all updates. So I update the templates regularly, as law changes as new things in our industry change and things pop up. And that we need. I go in there, and I add new trainings, I update the templates that are included, and everybody always gets up for free who's already in it.

Ellen Yin  19:59  
That's so awesome. And on the support side, because I'm sure some of our listeners are thinking, Oh, wow, like they bought this bundle, and then they get access to you personally. What does that actually look like? Like? What is the level of proximity they have to you the total, I guess, opportunities to actually directly interact with you? 

Sam Vander Wielen  21:02  
Yeah, so so it's really funny, because people often say, this is like, the most surprising thing is that they expect for me not to be available or like that I check my own email, and I respond to it. So a lot of my bundle members actually email me and I respond to them, if it's something that is like, how do I find this document or something? We have people on the team who can help with that. But if it's a legal question, and they don't understand something, they can always reach me by email. I'm in the Facebook group multiple times a week answering questions. So I think our policy is less than 48 business hours of a reply for me for any kind of legal question that they have. So they can post that in the group. They can also post it in Kajabi, because we use Kajabi to host the bundle. So then they can post it there so that other people get to see the responses, their tos, they can comment like directly on a legal template or on a training, which is cool, because now we have five years worth of like really, really good questions and all the replies there. So there's that. 

And then I would say multiple times throughout the year, we hold all different kinds of live events for them. So typically, the way that I like to do things is that whenever I have some sort of promotion, and I'm going to include something new as part of a promo, like some special live event that the people who buy during that promo get, I always invite my OG bundle members. So I always let them come to it. So they get like all this continued access. Like I hosted a two day business virtual retreat last year, they got to come to that. I posted a lot of things to where I've just said, Hey, you guys can have this. But could you make a $12 donation to leukemia society and honor my dad. And then people will happily like do that. And then they just get to come for 12 bucks, like so we've done little things like that to where we're selling that thing for like hundreds of dollars, but they get to come for 12 It was my dad's favorite number. So yeah, like we do a lot of that kind of stuff as well. I did a live q&a call for them a few months ago, where we had like hundreds of people just got on. And it was like three and a half hours of me answering legal questions like rabid. Yeah, I hosted an evergreen funnel training for them, because they were fascinated by my evergreen funnel. And I was like, I'm happy to talk about that all day long. So I've done lots of different things for them. I love them all so much. I feel like we're a family of 1000s.

Ellen Yin  23:08  
I really get that sense, even though the initial product, I guess, is truly a DIY template, so to speak, you know, utilizing what you've created as an attorney. It seems like the true power of this product is the community aspect, which is interesting, because that's not really what you expect for legal templates, right? It's unexpected, which I love. And what was the price point for the total bundle? 

Sam Vander Wielen  23:33  
We have a pay in full option. If you go through and you watch the webinar, we run different sales throughout the year, it's $1999, $2,000 essentially, for just like the pay in full price. And then we have now a 12 Pay option was something that I instituted maybe during COVID I think I had a shorter Pay option before that. But to give people more time and pay for time, we have a 12 payments of $197 now as well. 

Ellen Yin  23:56  
Nice and what have you seen as the split between those? Do you find that most people take the pay in full versus now the installment plan we actually have bulk pay in full for the most part? 

Sam Vander Wielen  24:06  
It's really interesting. Like I noticed whenever we run promotions, when we sell the most during fast action always sold within the first like two three days we sell the most. And those will typically be pay in full, I offer an additional bonus if you pay in full as well. And that's something I've considered restructuring as I've learned more and more about like making payments more accessible and not penalizing people so it's something that I've thought about a lot but at the same time it's also a benefit so I we don't know but that I definitely see a bump from that when people just like pay in full when it's fast action, and then I typically see in a promotion that the later it goes we see more payment plans rolling which is something I'm always then looking at is like okay, then how many of those bounce over time so how worth it is it I'm giving people access you know. I've activated all the different payment options as well like people can use PayPal credit that was something I had played with in the beginning. 

I'm plagued by my conscience when it becomes when it comes to pricing, because it's just something I think about all the time, because I'm like, I don't want to promote people taking out loans. I don't want to promote people taking a credit. And then I'm like, but this is their choice, you know. And so I go back and forth about things where I'm trying to be as responsible as I can and also give people options and let them be their own person. 

Ellen Yin  25:18  
Yeah, absolutely. That struggle between, you know, honoring free will and also as ethical as possible. I totally get that. And it's interesting your data around how the bulk of early buyers are painful versus later buyers tend to be payment plans. I'm curious if you're listening to our show today, and you offer both pay in full and payment plans, do you find the same to be true as what Sam is saying? I'll start a Thread on this. I've been loving using Instagram threads for basically like follow up discussions like this, because it is really interesting to see how different businesses experience how strategies play out in their business. So if you're listening to this, and you want to join the conversation, hop on over to threads, it'll be somewhere near the top and add your two cents here on what you've observed in your own business. 

Sam, I did want to ask you for even further context. So this bundle, you know, pay in full is right around $2000. How does that compare to if people individually bought the 10 templates that are in that bundle, ala carte, like what what does each template sell for individually? 

Sam Vander Wielen  26:19  
So most of our templates are about $347. There are some that are cheaper, and some that are more expensive, depending on if it's like a highly specialized contract like a nondisclosure agreement. For example, I think it's $397, Retreat contracts $397, because that's typically like the only thing that person buys, because they're just going to like host a retreat or something like this, but have one that's available for $97, that's included, and the value of the 10 templates is included almost $3,000. So the value of just the templates alone was more than the actual costs of the bundle. So then the way that I like to think about it was like That way if people balked at like, well, I don't need all the trainings, like I don't want courses, or I don't want videos, it was like, well, you're still getting more than the value just from the templates. And then other people would be like, Oh, I just wanted the trainings, I don't care about the templates. Well, they're more valuable than the cause of thing. So it to me, it kind of worked either way. 

And I've had an insanely high number of people reach out and say, I would have paid so much more, which is so interesting, because I just wanted to share that with anybody who is sitting there like I was in 2018, being like, no one's ever going to pay for this, that everyone's gonna think that this is too expensive, no one's gonna buy it. And now I have people and I have had for the last five years, people write me all the time saying I would have paid more if I knew how much of a stress relief it was going to be. If I knew how helpful is going to be how valuable it would be over time, and how much money they essentially make back from being able to get paid by their clients, you know? 

Ellen Yin  27:43  
Oh, 1,000% we're not all necessarily great at future pacing our investments, like thinking about not just like, what is the 30, 60, 90 day return? But like, Yeah, over the lifespan of their participation, like what is the true value? And that's a really great point that you bring up there. The price anchoring. So that's interesting. So like, again, I know you said some templates are more or less than others. But if we take that average of like $350, per se, essentially, if they're buying the bundle, they're getting at least $1,500 off of the price that they would pay individually. How did you decide on that exact, I guess, discount for the bundle piece? Did you test different price points? Was that just the one that you landed on originally? And you stuck with it? Or what was the strategy behind that price anchoring? 

Sam Vander Wielen  28:32  
Yeah, that's that is the price that I landed on originally, I just in the beginning was not open at all to payment plants. I was very bullish about this. And I only would do painful. I was very scared to let go of that. And I mean, I'm glad I did it for a while. And then I'm glad I stopped. But I was kind of comfortable with that price point, the way that I thought about it was that because of all those free calls that we know about, I knew which templates were like the foundational ones that like every single person who I spoke to essentially needed these, like four or five things. And when you added that up, it was basically the cost of the bundle. And I was hearing on the phone that people would be like, well, maybe I'll buy these two or three now. And then I'll buy those two later, you know, and I was like, but you need them all now like you can't have them later. So how do we work this out? 

So I figured out which ones that they wouldn't need to be able to make somebody see the value in it right away of like, okay, I need those five or whatever. And then through copy and  marketing, I understood what I needed to do to explain like, look, in no time, you're gonna go hire your first VA. Now you have your independent contractor agreement, you get your first client, you're going to need a testimonial release, here's your testimonial release, like it's going to be very quick that you're going to start drawing on these other ones. And this is actually going to give you the flexibility to go from like, "Hey, I'm burnt out on one to one coaching. I want to offer a course." Oh, what do I know I have this contract right here. I have a training in there about how to set it up properly. So everything's there for you. So it's actually there to help them evolve, not just like when they evolve. 

Ellen Yin  29:58  
Yeah, no, that's really interesting that you kind of help them visualize that for themselves from the get go. You mentioned earlier that the the course element, the training piece of it is also, of course very valuable. Do you sell that piece as a standalone ever? Or is that exclusive to the bundle? 

Sam Vander Wielen  30:16  
I keep it exclusive to the bundle so that it has a very high value. Because what I have found too is that oftentimes people will come to me and say, Can I just have this one piece? This is all I need. And then I ask a couple of questions. And what do you know, that is not all that they need, it might be all that they want. At some point, it's not responsible for me to make money off of something that is not the complete picture. And so unfortunately, I like a lot of other people in our industry that were like CPAs, or study like the financial side, there are a lot of myths that I'm having to overcome that could have really disastrous consequences for people. And so when people contact me and say, I'm not going to get an LLC, because I heard that all I have to do is get a trademark or hurt, all I have to do is get insurance. So can I just have that one training? Could I make a few $100 and sell this home? Sure, when they get sued, and they're personally liable? will I sleep at night? No, because it's not responsible. And so like, I'm not comfortable with it, I've put my foot down about not selling templates. 

And I don't think people in our industry should be selling things that are too highly specialized things that people have to go to somebody local to them, who really understands the law can see them face to face and look at their business, I won't offer them services at the same time that I sell these products, like I really keep it very clean. And I tried to do right by them. And I tried to explain, I also have a lot of free resources on a lot of things. So it's like, if you truly just have a question about a trademark, I probably have like 17 podcast episodes and blog posts and YouTube videos and everything else for you. So it's like, I have tons of resources for you. If you really just need to learn about something. I'm not saying you have to buy the bundle of every time we have a question, right. But that's what I often found was like it was kind of like people trying to get out of something. 

Ellen Yin  31:54  
No, I really respect that in being able to see, like you said the potential pitfalls to siloing a specific template or training without them understanding the full legal liability behind making that decision. So I really respect that you sacrifice perhaps some of the profit that you could generate from saying yes to those inquiries in exchange for peace of mind, essentially, and knowing that you're doing the best to give people the right tools to set up for success. So really, really respect that piece. 

This funnel, you started to kind of allude to it that you will sell through webinars. And sometimes you'll do fast action bonuses during live launches, which I love getting the behind the scenes context, because honestly, this is my favorite part of having guests on our show is like because we are a case study focus show. It's so great. Because essentially, we get to peek behind the scenes of like so many different types of businesses and like how they think about their products, how they position them, how they price them or sell them. So I'm really curious, your funnel to get someone to buy this bundle? Do you have several entryways into this product? Can you walk us through what they look like? 

Sam Vander Wielen  33:02  
Yeah, so I have, I mean, I started with having just kind of a basic top of funnel a webinar, my main webinar called five steps to legally protect and grow your online business, we've had over 100,000 people take it in. So there have been a lot of people who have taken this and and a lot of them have purchased either the bundle or legal templates, which is really wild. And a lot of them hang around and buy later, which by the way, I just wanted to come back to our discussion about how like, so many people buy painful upfront, it's because I've created this almost like Stanley Cup effect buying thing where like, people come in the funnel at such a high rate, they stay on my email list, they're really excited about the ultimate bundle. And then when I like release this promotion, they jump on it right away, and they've been planning for it. So they buy it pay in full, because they've been saving and planning. They want the bonuses and whatever. And so I think that is also a part of like what I've kind of created a little bit by accident, to be honest.

Ellen Yin  33:57  
Just to make sure I understand correctly, you have people who are coming into your world, for example, through the webinar, and you're saying these are people who may not be buying right away, but they somehow know that you do these sort of fast action bonuses. So they know to anticipate and save for it. Like how did they become I guess aware that this is like a tactic that you use so that they know to wait for the next, let's say fast action bonus to become available to jump in? 

Sam Vander Wielen  34:21  
Yeah, that's a really good question. So I would say one thing is that I've taken a pretty hard line that I am not a pressure seller person. So I am very much like, Hey, here's what I offer. It's an amazing product or 1000s of your peers and who really, really love it. If it's for you. Awesome. I can't wait to see you inside. If it's not for you at all. I hope you hang around. If it's for you later, I'll see you then like, I really do take that attitude about it. And I don't pressure people there's not like get out of here if you're not gonna buy this thing. We have tons of resources and all these things like set up for when people email us and say they can't afford it. Like we have so many options. I'm not here to shove this down people's throat and I think that that attitude honestly has allowed a lot of people to be like, I mean, I get emails every day from people being like, I love this, I can't wait to be in it today is not the day. 

And then I think I write pretty good emails, because I'm very dorky and, like, tell a lot of stories. And I love storytelling. And so I usually write about some, like, really ridiculous thing that's happened, I tied into business. And I write a lot about business and marketing, not about legal. And that's been my kind of secret sauce. And so people hang around. And the second thing I do other than not pressuring people, is that I talk about the bundle constantly. So I talk about it a lot, I keep it very top of mind, I tell my customers all the time, every single thing that you see me do is extremely intentional. 

I am the first one to admit that every single thing I do is on purpose, I talk about it, I drop it into emails, I tell a story because I know I'm gonna loop into it. And I am very open and honest about my promotions, when something's coming that you can get it at any time to that's the other thing. It's not closed, you can get any time you can get it for the same price. I run different bonuses and stuff. And I'm very honest about that. But that goes back to this like, it's not like you have to buy in September or you can't get it again until you know, January or whatever. It's like you can get this stuff whenever if if it works for you now, great if it doesn't work for you until later. Great. And I've really just taken this like long haul approach to business. I seriously get emails all the time, people have been like, I've been getting your emails and following you for five years, I just purchased the Ultimate Bundle. I am so freakin excited. And so and like it doesn't bother me that they're hanging around for five years, if that's what works for them. 

Ellen Yin  36:34  
I really love that approach. And I think, to your point, like people are attracted to ease, right, they're attracted to non desperation. I see how kind of letting people come into their own decisions on their own time can be really great in building trust, I think with your audience. Going back to the the different entry points into the bundles. So they come in through this webinar. Is there any other way that they, I mean, outside of like you said, organically mentioning it in your emails, and maybe on your social media posts, like what, if any, are additional primary ways that you capture leads specifically for the bundle? 

Sam Vander Wielen  37:13  
Yeah, so I have an evergreen webinar that runs 24/7. And then during COVID, I actually started offering a live webinar, I was evergreen for like the first three years, that's all I did. So every single day, I just go on social media, teach something and then be like, go watch my webinar, and I got 1000s and 1000s of people just that way first, I didn't want to do live, I didn't want to do promotion. I didn't want to do a launch. I didn't wanna do any of it. I was very, very resistant. I see a pattern here is we're talking, like always resistance with things and then I come around. It must be the Scorpio on me. I'm like, I don't know. But I during COVID I was like, All right, everybody was pressuring me to like do this live webinar. I was like, Fine, I'll try it. And so we had like, 4000 people sign up for the first one. I was like, 

Ellen Yin  37:53  
Oh my god, Sam, that's so awesome. 

Sam Vander Wielen  37:55  
Yeah, it was really crazy. And so we started doing it like once, maybe twice a year, depending. So that's another now just like adding a little bit of a live element to jazz it up. And then I went like one level above once the webinar was super solid, it converts really high. I was like, Okay, well, let's try to do some, like not everyone wants to watch a webinar. That's one. So I was like, let's create some other entry points. So I created some other like guides and videos and different things. I tried to quiz that didn't go so great, just for me, I probably did it wrong. But even now I have like even like checklists and little guides that then the purpose of those is to lead people to opt into the webinars. So we're adding like a little pre step like a warm up, I still I also do a lot like direct to bundle. So I still do a lot of like social media stuff where the call to action is to buy the bundle, I do emails where the call to action is to buy the bundle. So I still find that that works very well for me. So I do a little bit of both like funneling people to my funnel, and then also directly to the product. 

Ellen Yin  38:53  
Okay, awesome. So like, if it's not a direct to bundle, purchase all roads everywhere else lead to the webinar, correct? 

Sam Vander Wielen  39:01  
Yeah. All, the roads would lead to the webinar. I'm trying to think like, even I guess even when I started the podcast in 2021, even then, like my commercials to watch the webinar, I talked about the bundle in the podcast a lot. Naturally, it comes up. Yes, I'm still pushing people to the webinar on it. 

Ellen Yin  39:19  
Awesome. And then going back to kind of the top level of this case study $1 million plus in 2022, from just this one product, which I'm pulling out my calculator to do the really quick math, if we average a $2,000 buy in, that's 500 people or more who purchased the bundle over the course of that year. What have you found to be, which is amazing, by the way, what have you found to be the most effective traffic strategy to get those interested people into your ecosystem? 

Sam Vander Wielen  39:54  
Yeah, so I do run Facebook ads. So that's helpful, although it's not where the bulk of my sales come from actually installing papers. It's over like 60%. Organic still. So I always want to talk about that. Because I find that it's often like an out for people to like, once they find out, you run Facebook ads, like, oh, well, you run Facebook ads, it's like, well, actually, first of all, they're super expensive. And they've only gotten more expensive since COVID, but also not the bulk of our sales, although over time, I mean, I think it brings in a ton of leads. And I nurture those leads over time. And they may be converting later, right? And that maybe not right away and when we're testing, but so that's that's one I would say like a consistent traffic driver. 

My number one traffic driver is Google, which I am like so proud of because 

Ellen Yin  40:38  
That's a huge thing. 

Sam Vander Wielen  40:41  
Yes, I had a very uneducated guess early on by accident that I was like, when I started this business. I was like, yes, social media. Yes, everything else. But like, if I had a question, I mean, TikTok didn't even exist then. But I mean, now I still think about this. I'm like, if I had a legal question about my business, I'm not searching on tik tok, I would type it into Google. And so for me, I was like, something tells me I should prioritize SEO. 

I didn't even know what SEO was. I remember, I literally had to google it, I want to find out what it meant. And I was like, how do you write an SEO optimized blog posts. And then I started out with my little like, challenge myself was that I started out, I wanted to write 10, SEO optimized blog posts that were super basic. And I knew that would be long term drivers to my website. And then in those articles themselves, I was linking to my products, and then eventually went back and edited them once I had the funnel, and I added in my webinar, and so those continued to be my number, we have hundreds of 1000s of views per month coming in this way. Right? So it's like those some of those articles are trending really well. Still the stuff I right now, like I just wrote something like a year ago, they like randomly took out I mean, you know, how Google is it just like that randomly took off. Other things I think are going to go well, don't. But that that brings us a lot of consistent traffic. 

And what I find too, is that it brings us the right people, which I really like, because they're literally looking for what we're offering. So that and I would say this was like a total shock to me. But the podcast has been a huge driver, like I, I started the podcast late in my business. And I really thought like, oh, everybody's already started a podcast, it's too late. No one's going to care. No one's gonna want to listen to mine. Sometimes I talk about legal, but I like trick them into listening because I talk about other stuff. And so it's like, and then I'm like, by the way you need to contract. And so I have been really shocked that I would say is not necessarily the highest driver of like the number of new leads or customers. It is the deepest connection and probably conversion, though, which I find to be the most interesting thing. 

Ellen Yin  42:45  
Yeah, I'm honestly not surprised by that just because the nature of this medium is you in someone's ear for potentially an hour at a time. And I don't feel like there's anything outside of long form YouTube content that really can replicate the level of intimacy with, you know, an audience member as as podcasting does. And so that's really interesting. Okay, so like, just to recap, about 60% of your traffic is organic 40% comes from paid advertising of that 60%. Google drives the highest amount of volume of traffic due to the SEO optimized content. And then following that would be your podcast and social media. 

Sam Vander Wielen  43:29  
I mean, Instagram is probably my other biggest Yeah. And I always get confused about this, even when I'm looking at the numbers of like, is Instagram driving traffic to the podcasts, podcast, driving traffic to Instagram? It's hard to tell sometimes. Right? We see a bit of both. And if I'm on other people's podcasts, if I have guests on mine, it seems to be that kind of community growth as well seems to be really helpful. 

Ellen Yin  43:51  
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, your bundle has grown year over year since 2018 2022, is already very impressive at 1 million. I know, for 2023, you're actually on track to beat that number, which is cool. I think last we checked in you are already sitting around 600,000, possibly more by now in the years only halfway there. Right. So understandably, it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that you would potentially reach at least 1.2 million this year for sales in this product. If we're going to look at the organic piece of it. If you remove let's say Google, because obviously if people discovery on Google, yes, they might also go follow you on social your podcast before they go by but most likely, if they're that intentional with like searching for a solution, they're probably just going to like go straight to the webinar. Right. So if we just kind of like, preclude Google, I guess, have you found that your audience over the last five years has grown significantly, as in in tandem with the rise in sales of the bundle or do you feel like audience has grown but that it's not grown at such a significant level that would match the revenue growth of the bundle does the question I'm asking makes sense. 

Sam Vander Wielen  45:09  
Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, I've never done the percentage conversion, but it'd be really interesting to look at, like, obviously, I have a lot more Instagram followers than I have customers of the bundle. But I wonder if I look at like the number of people who signed up for the webinar versus the customers, it'd be like a similar percentage, you know, and I like to think I mean, my direction to the team is always that those are future customers. And that's how we think of it internally is just like, those are just people like those people that are kind of hanging, waiting for something to be right in their situation to come join us. 

Ellen Yin  45:37  

Sam Vander Wielen  45:38  
So that's the way I think of it. I do think it has grown well. And also, I've tried to expand a little beyond like just talking about legal, I don't sell anything else. But in terms of talking about I've been very honest about what it's been like to build a multi seven figure business now to have had one every single year since 2020. To do that, well, both of my parents died. You know, I had brain surgery, like, I've had a lot go on, but I've tried to also just be a little bit of a voice in our industry about like, some things can happen in your life, and you can keep going and also you can be like really authentic in a non cheesy, authentic way. And also it's like okay to share only what you want to share. 

Now I'm talking a lot about writing a book. I just got a book deal. The day my mom died. I got a book deal. Oh, thank you. 

Ellen Yin  46:19  
Yeah, that's a very, that's a must have a be a doozy to like, wrap your mind around, like one of the worst things and probably best things that's ever happened. 

Sam Vander Wielen  46:28  
It was really, really weird. Yeah, it was very strange. I mean, maybe it was not a coincidence, I don't know. But it was very strange. And it was something I've wanted my whole life. So that's like the kind of stuff that I've started sharing about. Now you have all these new people, I feel like they've just been coming in, like ever since I announced I got the book deal. It's like, oh, I want to be around to watch the book. So I feel like the audience has grown and shifted. I've actually seen more I feel like lately, I've been thinking a lot about like how my audience not grown in terms of size, but how my audience has grown and changed and evolved. Like, as people as a group. It's been very interesting, I think to see like the evolution since 2016 2017. 

Ellen Yin  47:05  
Ya no, that that is really interesting way to look at it. What would you say is the biggest difference now versus then? 

Sam Vander Wielen  47:11  
Right now I'm feeling a general sense of burnt outedness, I would say, of being sick of social media, or at least the way social media was, although this is so interesting, like you brought up Threads. I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I just did a spicy little podcast episode about how everybody keeps saying about threads about how they love Threads, because they can be themselves. And I'm like, you guys, you can be yourself wherever you want. Like, don't blame that on the app, right? Like, you can be yourself on Instagram if you want to be. And you can't blame that on the medium. Like, if video is not your thing, there are plenty of other ways to show up there as yourself, you know, and like Threads is a writing app. So you can still write on Instagram, if you want without showing up on video. Like, I just think like, I've seen that change in them where they're like, they're sick of a lot of things of the way things used to be done. 

I feel like I've seen a big, big shift in like the marketing space that was really big back in like 2016-17 of like business coaches and courses and this kind of stuff. And like my people are all the people who like bought all that stuff back then. And none of it worked for them. And they're frustrated. And so they're trying to figure out like, they're they're finding different ways, I'm seeing a lot more like what I would consider to be more like hybrid businesses, like they're doing things in person, they're hosting workshops, they're also seeing people online, like they're also doing some creative work like, it's a bit more mixed, versus what I saw when we started was like, you come in, you become a coach, you offer one to one, maybe you start a course or a group program. And like that's it, and just not seeing that kind of like cookie cutter business model anymore. 

Ellen Yin  48:40  
That's a really interesting observation. Okay, this is a second moment where I'm like, Hey, if you're listening, I want to, I want to, I want to hear your opinion, too. Are you in consensus with Sam on this? Have you also noticed that change in your own audience? Again, come join us over on Threads? It'll be a link in the show notes. So if you're like, What the heck is Threads? Just click the link, come join the conversation. 

And I'm with you, Sam. Like I think it all comes down to like, what your reasoning for wanting to be on a platform is but to your point, yeah, you can be yourself on any platform. I think for me personally, just as like a side tangent on threads, I, I kind of look at it not as like, Oh, this is another growth channel. But really just I find that people are for whatever reason, I don't know whether it's just new behavior, or whether this will be lasting, but I find people are much more willing to engage in a dialogue there right now. And so I've been personally really enjoying it for purposes like this, where like, we're having this conversation kind of in a silo but like, I want to hear what our listeners are thinking about this too. So being able to invite them to a place where they can easily share in a public forum and then bounce off of other people's ideas and feedback, I think is a beauty of that particular tool. Absolutely. 

Sam Vander Wielen  49:53  
Yeah, for sure. I'm seeing a lot of people also I feel like and maybe this is where threads is helpful because you don't have to be on video and all that, but I feel like this deep prioritization of business, if I'm being honest, like, I feel like when we started, I feel like everybody's business was their baby and their thing and whatever you want to call it. And now people are like, Yeah, I have a business. And I also have this other stuff in my life that is equally if not more important to me. And, and like, I think when we started, it was very much like the Girlboss movement of like this, like you had your whole life was about being an entrepreneur, and I'm just seeing like a bit of a reshuffling of that that's, that's kind of what I'm feeling. And maybe that's if you have an audience, and they're growing up, right, it's like, it's just less and less important to them over time. That's kind of what I'm seeing. And I feel like that's tied to social media, too, because people are like, I want to get off my phone, I'm gonna stop observing everybody else's life. I want to live my own, like, those are the messages I'm getting every day. 

Ellen Yin  50:47  
No, I agree with you. I think that's a really keen observation of like the general shift in our collective societal view, or like worship for lack of a better word of hustle culture. And understanding that there is life beyond you know, your screen or your Stripe account, or like, Whatever, whatever else we got going on here. 

I do want to real quick go back to the paid traffic side of things. We talked about organic, the 40% that comes from traffic, if you're willing to share, what do you typically spend monthly on ads? And what are you seeing as the cost per acquisition? Or if you don't have that number, perhaps what is the cost per lead? You're getting right now on on webinars? And and how are you seeing that convert on the back end in terms of webinar conversion rates? 

Sam Vander Wielen  51:30  
Yeah, so I know that we're typically spending in like a normal month, it's about 20,000 ad spend, we sometimes flirt with about 30. If like, things are going really well, or we're doing a promotion, we're ramping something up like that. So that's primarily pushing people to my webinar, we also we obviously, then have a sales funnel that runs as well for ads. And then we have a very, very small one, that's way cheaper to run that's familiarizing people with my podcast, sometimes we pull reels that are doing really well. And we push a little traffic to those. So some stuff like that. So that's all being managed, like on the back end, the team is gonna kill me for this, that I don't know this off the top of my head, but I believe that our goal is under $20 per lead. And I remember the last time I attended meetings, I don't attend these anymore. It was like $16, I want to say $15, maybe for the bundle. And I was like, okay, that's alright, our ads team, always we always make a profit, so we don't ever lose money on them. And we've gotten some like really crazy return on adspend. 

We've had some insanely successful promotions with them, we've just had random months, there have been some times throughout, like some of the downline string COVID, that maybe we got, like 2.8 and the return on adspend. And that was our lowest. And so we flirt around there. But that's the gist of it. I mean, it always profitable. It's not, it's never been a loss for us. And then I have just considered it to be my job. The way I always say to everybody is like, look, we're taking in way more people than we're selling to whether we're actually buying. So we have just as big if not bigger responsibility to all these other people, like what are we doing with all these other people over here who are left over, and I want to continue to nurture them. So that's really my priority every day. 

Ellen Yin  53:04  
I love that too. Because just like we talked about earlier in our conversation, there's all this potential upside to these future customers that didn't buy yet, but like yet being the operative word, right? Because so you may see like a 2x ROAS, return on adspend, in the immediacy, but it's like to your point, the people who are like I've been with you for five years, and I finally bought the bundle, like that metric would never be tracked by ads, it's too far out the window. But it doesn't mean that they might not have originated from that ad five years ago, right. So I think that's what I really like about your case study is that it really brings to light how the journey of each person in our world can look so different and to not discount a particular strategy just because the immediacy of the return is not there. So I think you're a great testament to that. 

And to wrap up our case study I wanted to real quick just highlight your biggest company launch in your business's history. So this was February, right? 

Sam Vander Wielen  54:08  
Yeah. started in January. They've concluded in February. Yeah. 

Ellen Yin  54:11  
Okay, awesome. What was different about this launch? Like what did you learn coming out of this launch that you would want to impart on our listeners of like, Hey, these are some really cool things we tried or double down on that worked really well for us, particularly thinking around people who are in a similar space as you selling digital products. 

Sam Vander Wielen  54:29  
Yeah, sure. So one thing was that I've learned that in between if you're somebody who runs promotions or sales of any kind in between those sales and promotions, I like literally the day after promotion or sale ends I am like, I visually picture myself like shifting gears and I'm like back into nurture mode like heavy heavy nurture mode. I typically am sending out freebies to my list that are not gatekept at all. You know, I am going heavy on the like, tons of tips or like, episodes that I knew that they really wanted a lot. People have been asking for you know, answering I do Q&A episodes like doing just a lot of service in between not asking for anything, just like really going all in on nurture. So that was a big one. 

One other thing I really wanted to test this time around. And I think it went really well, which I was excited about. Because like I understand, I try to always think about, like, what my customers lives or potential customers lives are like, like, what's their day, like, I know they're busy. I know that sitting in front of a computer for another hour is like probably one of the last things they feel like doing. So just know, generally speaking, like, even if people have time, or the desire to watch a webinar, like they just might not want to write. So I was like, what if we offered the webinar replay as like a private podcast. And so people had to opt into this so that we still got the lead capture for it. But that way they could listen to in the car while they're cooking dinner. Like while they're nursing their baby, or whatever people are doing, they can listen to this. So like, let's just try this. And people thought that was really cool. We also then made it available to anybody who signed up for the webinar, which I thought was cool. So that then if it was like they didn't show up, or they wanted to hear it again, I did that. 

So those are two big things. And I would say the third thing that I did was that I doubled down on this fast action thing, because I just know that this is what works for us. I think our people are kind of like, quick decision maker. Like they're the kind of people who know what they want. And it's like, if it doesn't line up for them, it doesn't line up for them. And so I just made the fast action like super juicy. I've learned that for for my audience, too. It seems like any kind of live opportunity that they can get is really valuable to them. So I guess it was that lunch that I offered the one that was like a Q&A call just with me and I would stay on as long as people wanted and 

Ellen Yin  56:41  
Was that the 3 and a half hour one? 

Sam Vander Wielen  56:45  
I still remember I was like coughing at the end. I was like I can't breathe. Um, but yeah, I think that was something that was really helpful. We also started to do like little raffles for like the live webinar or like, person who asked the most questions gets a prize, like the person who stays on till the end get something the first person who buys gets a private one on one with me like, so we started doing like little things like that that have been, I don't know, I think just making it fun. 

I'm obsessed with studying corporate strategy, corporate marketing stuff. So I'm always thinking about like Costco and how they like hide the best products like halfway down the aisle, and they're always moving stuff around. And they have like, these like mystery products that people are always excited about. And I think about what Starbucks does with its rewards program. And I just think about all this stuff all the time. I'm like, How can I have a whole series of podcast episodes coming out about this about like, How can I take these little like, corporate nuggets and like, put them into my own business? 

Ellen Yin  57:35  
I'm so excited to listen that because same Sam, I am so obsessed, yeah, who love nerding out over big business. I've actually just bought this book about Dick's Sporting Goods, and kind of about their whole evolution, which I just love reading about. Yeah, how big businesses think because they do think so differently. Like even Starbucks, for example, like their app, like you mentioned. Yeah, it kind of blew my mind around how their whole financial model is really built around Starbucks essentially being like a bank and not 

Sam Vander Wielen  58:01  
Yeah they save gift card money and make interest off of it. Yeah. And they collect the data and they sell it. 

Ellen Yin  58:05  
Yeah, it's I mean, it's honestly fascinating. So very excited for your series. I want to end on a hot take. Clearly, you've had immense success with, you know, taking individual pieces, and putting it into one solution for your customers through a bundle. But like you mentioned, it is lifetime access for a one time purchase of $2,000. So my hot take question to you is why did you choose a model like this have a one time purchase where they stick with you for life, and you're supporting them for life? But you're not necessarily receiving any recurring revenue? Like, why did you choose to go down this path? Would you change anything about it? And if like someone's in your community, and this is your number one main product? Is there even any potential to upsell or extend their lifetime value? Or is it kind of like once you're in the bundle? Like that kind of ruins your buying journey, so to speak with you? 

Sam Vander Wielen  58:57  
Yeah, so I'm always really honest with bundle members about this. And I've taught this to them in trainings like I'm, I'm super open with them. It was absolutely a decision out of fear that I made that no one would ever buy this anyway. So like, who cares about lifetime access? Because no one's gonna buy it. So I was like, well, I'll just be sitting here by myself, but lifetime access. And then so many people started to buy that I started panicking, like, Oh, my God, am I gonna have to do this when I'm at like I was, I was like, really freaking out for a while. It was kind of funny. So I wouldn't necessarily recommend it. 

However, I'm going to spend it into a good thing, because that's like the marketing brain that I have. It has cultivated such goodwill with my customers that I can't tell you. I mean, word of mouth. We can't quantify. I mean, that would be very difficult to quantify our word of mouth sales. It is I can just tell you huge because people we can just get so many people who like that network just keeps spreading and spreading people openly share about us in their groups and their schools and their certification programs on other people's podcasts, like all kinds of stuff. So I feel like it's create a lot of goodwill. 

And then I have created other things where I have like hosted other big events or things like this. And the our bundle members are always down to, like they buy like crazy. So anything I put out they buy, they're the ones that are most excited about the book, they're gonna be like first in line for the book. So they're gonna be like little foot soldiers for it. So that's, I kind of think of them as like interns, that's one of the ways that I think about them sometimes is like, they're gonna go out and like, do the work of spreading the word for me, which I, if I'm paying $15 $16, a lead for every single Facebook ad, then I'm like, well, that helps, you know, for some of these people that are doing that for free. So that's one thing. 

But then also I have, so I create an order bump that brought in hundreds of hundreds of 1000s of dollars, the first year that I ever did that was really helpful. It's additional three email templates that they it's not a legal template, it's like, these three email templates that I wrote that one is to send to a client, when they haven't paid you, it's kind of like a goes from nice to not as nice like as you can kind of customize it to your liking to spice level. I guess that's how I should market it. Feeling yeah, mild, medium, and not spicy. So there's one of those emails, there's a GDPR email, which everybody just has to have for their email list. It's super boring. And then there's like a, hey, you're copying me online, kind of more of like a mimicking copycat type email that you can send to people. So they can get those three email templates that are literally just like copy and paste, like and put them in. So that's available checkout. 

And I again, talking about hearing like a pattern of myself, I was like, no one's gonna buy this, that run in hundreds of 1000s of dollars in revenue, which I was just shocked. And then we've done other little, like, bigger Audubon's upsells, with promotions. And those are brought in a ton. That also contributed to that January, February launch being really big was that I added an additional upsell and most of the people but I think it was like 80% of the people bought. And I think oh, I think remember, Lindsey told me my operations instructor. I think she was like 65% of the people bought the order bump and the upsell at the same time. And so it just ended up being like a lot more revenue than we had anticipated. 

Ellen Yin  1:01:59  

Sam Vander Wielen  1:01:59  
So yeah, I also just know that if I wanted to create something new now I feel confident that the bundle members would be be up for it. And they're begging, begging for lots of business stuff, which I just have not been up for. But that is what they want.

Ellen Yin  1:02:14  
Oh my gosh, and I really admire the relationship you have with them. Like you said that it feels like you're like in this together, right? Like a sisterhood or I mean, I'm sure there's men too. But you know what I'm saying? It's like, it's it just feels like okay, we're with each other for the ride. And so I think that's incredible what you've built. 

And Sam, I'm sure there are some listeners who are like, I want to be part of this community or I want to connect with Sam more. Where's the best place for them to go say hi. 

Sam Vander Wielen  1:02:37  
Yeah, come on over. I just have to share this really quickly. Because I just thought about this when you said that about my bundle members. One of my bundle members, Julie, when my dad died, she sent me a wind chime with an engraving of a quote I said at my dad's funeral on the wind chime. And it's like the most beautiful thing like what person who sells legal templates gets a wind chime with an engraving on it. I would just like and then now my mom just passed, my bundle members have sent me gifts and cards and flowers and food. And I'm like, I literally sell a digital product. Like how did i How did this happen? I just feel very fortunate. They're a really good group of people. And I just think it's a testament to anyone I know you are all being sold like a lot of messages about like, sell, sell, sell, make money, like really only focusing on like, what you get out of business. But I feel like I just want people to know the story because I feel like I make more than enough. And I think at some point, there's just like enough, like enough is enough. I don't need to make more and more. And I feel like it's actually helping people and like people actually care, you know, so I don't know, just that was what I want to just shout out. 

But yes, if you need legal templates, you need the ultimate bundle. You can find me at You can go watch my free workshop called five steps to legally protect and grow your online business. We'll make sure you have a link to that. And then you can find me on Instagram @SamVanderWielen and obviously you like listening to podcasts, you can listen to mine called On Your Terms. Wherever you listen. 

Ellen Yin  1:03:58  
I love that. All of those links, by the way will be in the show notes for all of you. So make sure you go click away. Come join our conversation on Threads. It's like the after show. Sam, thank you so much for bringing your spice and your soul to this conversation. I genuinely had such a good time. Thank you. 

Sam Vander Wielen  1:04:15  
Thank you!

Unknown Speaker  1:04:19  
Hey, Ellen here. Thank you again for tuning in to Cubicle to CEO. If you enjoyed today's episode, follow our show on Instagram @cubicletoCEO for more bonus content and hop on the last Tuesday of each month to watch our live after show with recent guests. If you want to support our podcast, text this episode link to a friend, leave a positive review on Apple podcasts or rate our show wherever you're listening right now. Please make sure you also hit the Follow button on Apple it looks like a plus sign. Or click Subscribe on your favorite podcast player so you don't miss out on our new episodes every Monday and friends until next time, keep dreaming big!

Transcribed by

Sam's Cubicle to CEO Story
This Brought in 90% of Revenue
1,200 Sales Calls?!
What Is The Ultimate Bundle?
The Sales Funnel
Where Did She Get the Traffic?
Behind Her Biggest Launch
Did Ads Help?
Hot Take: Why Did She Offer Lifetime Access?
Connect with Sam